All kids play, but most people lose that skill somewhere along their journey to adulthood. It’s a shame, because play is a great way to connect with your partner and friends, get your kids to do what you want, and have a more engaged community.

In this week’s episode, I interview Kathy Oppegard. Kathy is a Martha Beck Life Coach, who specializes in teaching adults to rediscover their playful abilities. She’s also written the national best selling book Fool Willing, which helps green businesses and non-profits achieve more through play. We discuss:

  • Why play is important
  • Why we stop playing as adults
  • How playful kids become the best engineers
  • Why kindergartners outperform MBA’s
  • How to engage your audience through play
  • And much more!

Click here to download a FREE copy of Kathy’s national best selling book, Fool Willing.

Want to watch the TED talk about the Marshmallow Challenge? Click here!



Scott Robison Welcome to this week’s episode of the Integration Bodywork podcast. My name is Scott Robison. I’m a licensed massage therapist in Madison, Wisconsin. And before we get to today’s guest, I want to tell you a quick story. My two year old has been, he’s a messy eater, as two year olds tend to be. and instead of asking him to pick his foot up off the floor, and then having a contest of wills over who’s gonna do what, who’s not gonna do it. I’ve had a lot of success recently, getting him to buy in and have fun picking up his own mess, by asking them what truck he is. It’s like, “Does a dump truck pick up food?” “Well, no.” “Well, what truck would?” “Well, an excavator.” “How would an excavator do it?” And then he does it, and he has fun doing it.
Scott Robison Today’s guest is Kathy Oppegard. She’s a playful learning coach here in the Madison area, and she’s gonna talk with us more about how we can have better relationships with our family, have more productive relationships with our colleagues at work. How we can better engage our customers, our clients, our communities, through playful living. So, without further ado, my interview with Kathy Oppegard. [crosstalk 00:01:26]
Scott Robison Kathy, welcome to the show.
Kathy Oppegard Thanks so much for having me. Scott. Happy to be here.
Scott Robison Good. I’m excited. I’m really interested to learn today about, so this playful learning idea, or this playful life idea if you’re working with. But first, before we get into it, I’d love to hear how you came to this work that you’re doing, and why play is so important to you.
Kathy Oppegard Oh, sure. Well, I am a life coach. I’m a certified Martha Beck life coach. I had been doing some coaching for a while, and I went to a workshop where people work with horses to connect with themselves. And at this workshop, this lady was at the table and she said … we were sitting around table, literally at the table and she said, “I think I’ve forgotten how to play. Because when my grandkids come over, I don’t know what to do.” And, in that moment, it broke my heart for her and her grandkids. But I also thought, I could teach you how to play again. I could teach you that. So, I was on the airplane and I got what I call a download, from the universe. I used to scribble, scribble, scribble, scribble in my notebook. And it’s like, oh, play, of course. And this is what it helps.
Kathy Oppegard So I love play because, it’s such a marvelous way for people to reconnect with themselves, and rebuild their resilience and their creativity, whether that’s for their work or for home. They can really make changes, significant changes while having fun. So, that’s one of the many reasons why play is so important and vital to me. And I think also that, as adults we are told I’ll play as for kids, grow up. We’re taught a lot of silly things, that play is not for us anymore. It’s actually really a vital part of being human, and being able to think of new ideas. Our brains as humans, we have this, it’s called neoteny, which means that our brains are malleable and can change. Even when we’re in our 80s and 90s, our brains we can learn, right?
Kathy Oppegard So an 80 year old architect can create a beautiful, amazing new building. A 70 year old baker can make new cookies, that make us all drool and happy. So yeah, it’s really actually a vital part of our humanity. And really essential to helping us grow, and learn, and change and adapt to our lives and the changes that come along.
Scott Robison Yeah. So I’m interested in the neuroplasticity piece. As you say, we’re learning more and more. That, that is not as rigid as we thought. 20 years ago, people would have told you that once you reach about age 25, your brain is set. That seems clearly to be, as you say, you’re not the case. But where does play fit into that specifically?
Kathy Oppegard Sure. Well, what play does is it engages our brains in a new way. Like when you play, say if you imagine kids, and they’re playing tag, and then suddenly it morphs into we’re on Mars, and we’re looking around Mars. Then we’re exploring the surface of this other planet. And then it morphs, and then there’s a squirrel, and then that’s like a wildlife adventure trip. Right? So, it shifts over time, and those new experiences, and the new responses to new experiences, actually can lay down new pathways in our brain. Lay down new neural tracks. When you lay down new neural tracks, that allows for new connections in your brain, and allows for new ways of thinking and being and doing.
Scott Robison Got it.
Kathy Oppegard And so, yeah.
Scott Robison So yeah, so maybe put it another way. By playing, you’re able to be more creative in all areas of your life, not just the one you’re playing in.
Kathy Oppegard Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So maybe you loved words, and you’re like, “You don’t want to get back to that, New York Times crossword puzzle. And, “Man, sometimes it challenges me but I love it. I’ve got my thesaurus right there.” and all this stuff. But, because you’re having fun and you’re challenging yourself a little bit, you’re learning new words, you’re learning new connections. And then, a couple of weeks later, somebody asks you to do something at work. And then you go and you noodle on it a little, and then something else comes to you because you were playing around with those new words. Right? Because you were … yeah. It’s like that Aha moment.
Scott Robison Gotcha. Yeah. I was thinking about at the play, and other areas of your life. There’s a great Ted Talk from years ago. The Marshmallow Challenge, I think is what it was. Do you know this one?
Kathy Oppegard I don’t, but it sounds fabulous.
Scott Robison Yeah. So the premise is that you get people in teams of three or four, give them a marshmallow, like 12 pieces of spaghetti, think it’s tape. They get like 12 inches of tape, and like three minutes or five minutes to build the tallest tower, freestanding tower that can support the marshmallow.
Kathy Oppegard Oh, sure. Okay.
Scott Robison And they’ve done this with hundreds of people, thousands of people by the time they got to the Ted Talk. And to nobody’s surprise, I hope, the architects and engineers they do it with are the best. Because they understand self-reinforcing triangles, and really important building principals. The worst group they tested were MBA students. Because in business you spend so much time like organizing, and planning, and strategizing and then finally executing. And if it doesn’t work, your time’s up. Right?
Kathy Oppegard Right.
Scott Robison People who actually, one of the groups that does much better at it as kindergartners. Because kindergartens are playing. They prototype, they start, they get just a little bit, and a little bit taller, than it falls over. So they start over, and they constantly are refining that process. And it’s play to them, they’re just fooling around. But it’s the same process that you go through designing any good system.
Kathy Oppegard Right, exactly, exactly. It’s like fail often. Right?
Scott Robison Yeah, and fast. [crosstalk 00:08:27] Fail fast and often.
Kathy Oppegard … fail fast. I love that story. And it’s like the kindergartners aren’t attached to like, “Is this gonna be good?” And all that kind of stuff. They’re like, “Hey, cool! Marshmallows and noodles, let’s do this.” you know. And so yeah, I could just see them having a great time with that. Yeah. Exactly.
Scott Robison You mentioned briefly that attachment, just to sort of translate there. Do you feel like that’s a big piece of why adults have so much trouble playing. The attachment to the idea, or attachment to the outcome?
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. Instead of being willing to see what happens, right? Just like the kindergartners, and the noodles and the marshmallows. They’re just like, “Okay. Well, we’ve got this bigger end goal, but we’re gonna see what happens on our way to it.” And I think adults expect not to fail, they don’t want to fail because they don’t want to feel bad. We’ve attached bad to fail, and actually it’s just, “Oh, that didn’t work.” Rather than saying, “Oh, that didn’t work, huh. Okay, what did I learn from that? Let’s try it again.” We get all twisted up about, “Oh, I’m just a terrible person.” or whatever.[crosstalk 00:09:51]
Scott Robison Yeah. Or ashamed, or embarrassment. Or they’re all gonna laugh at me. Yeah.
Kathy Oppegard Right, exactly. Rather than saying, “Oh.” and laughing at yourself, maybe. And say, “Oh, that didn’t work. Okay, let’s try it again.” And that’s part of that building your resilience piece, is like, “Oh, okay, I can fail. It’s okay. I can pick myself back up. It’s fine. I’m good. I’m just gonna grab another marshmallows and some noodles, and go back.”
Scott Robison Sure. So how do you start helping people overcome, I guess maybe this basic sort of, like more root issue of it’s difficult to fail, as we get older. For many of us. How do you start overcoming that, because that seems maybe like the biggest stumbling block people are gonna run into. Are they going, “Okay, so, I want to play more. How do I do that? I don’t know. I’m not gonna try.” Right? Is that kinda how that goes?
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. It can be, it can be kind of different reasons. Or they’re attached to some idea that adults can’t be playful, or something like that. So, we might look at, what does that mean to you? Like if you fail, does that mean I’m a bad person? Is that really true? Would you say that to the kindergartner with marshmallows and the noodles? And they’re like, “Oh no.”
Scott Robison Probably not.
Kathy Oppegard Like, “Oh, okay, yeah. Well maybe let’s just pretend that you’re a kindergartner with these marshmallows and noodles, and you’re gonna try this thing. What might you say to that little kid?” Right? What might you say? Like, “Oh, you can do it. Try it again. We’ll just pick it up. It’s okay. I’ll help.”
Scott Robison Right. Sure. But, you can’t talk to adults like you can talk to kindergartners, or at least I try not to.
Kathy Oppegard You can’t, right.
Scott Robison So, how do you talk to the adults about that?
Kathy Oppegard Well, you can only invite them to kind of like say, “How would you say that to your good friend?” Right? How might you say that to someone that you really love and care about it? Like they were starting something new, and they’re nervous about it. Like, “I believe in you, you can do this. I bet you can try it again, and it might work better this next time. Right?
Kathy Oppegard I bet you can try it again, and it might work better this next time, right? So like how can you, if you look at it, and then say, “Oh, okay. I would never ever say that mean thing or that un-encouraging thing to a friend.” It’s like oh, okay. So turn that around for yourself, like, oh, what would I say to my close friend? What would I say to my beloved grandma? What would I say? Oh, yeah. Okay. So now I’m going to say that to myself, and I’m going to … Yeah, I’m going to try it again.
Scott Robison Sure.
Kathy Oppegard And the other thing I do, is I help people … It’s something that folks can do listening to this podcast right now, is what is it way back when, or actually maybe not so far back, that you just love to do? Something that you lost track of time, where you could have been by yourself, or you could be with other people. It could have been really kind of exuberant, and physical, and playful, like that, or could be more quiet and relaxed. If you kind of go back into time, and look at the things that you loved, maybe you loved to paint, maybe you loved climbing trees, and maybe you loved getting together with friends and telling the cheesiest jokes you possibly could.
Scott Robison Right.
Kathy Oppegard So we look at, okay, what were some of those things, and what’s like an adult version of that? What’s a grownup version for you? And how could we add that back into your life right now?
Scott Robison Yeah, that’s an interesting idea. I think so many things sort of come to mind, right? That sounds like the wine and painting parties that people have. That’s right up that alley.
Kathy Oppegard Right, exactly.
Scott Robison It’s interesting you put it that way because that’s when … When people ask me like, “Oh, I need to work out more, what do you recommend?” My answer is usually something fun with other people.
Kathy Oppegard Exactly.
Scott Robison Right? Because it’s-
Kathy Oppegard Something fun, something you love.
Scott Robison Something that you want to go to do, like people like me, and people like Ray or sort of aliens by comparison to the rest of the population because we like going to the gym and lifting weights, and doing that stuff, that’s interesting to us.
Kathy Oppegard Right. Great.
Scott Robison Most people hate it, which is fine, right?
Kathy Oppegard Right. Exactly.
Scott Robison So besides that, where else are people looking for more help with their play?
Kathy Oppegard Oh, sure. Well, sometimes organizations are doing this, and it’s really interesting to discover how play is really essential to some stuff we might not have thought of. Like for example, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, they’re the folks who are the, let’s get it into space people, right? They’ve worked on the Mars Rover, on the Space Shuttle missions, all this kind of stuff. So they’re really good at solving complex problems about engineering in space.
Kathy Oppegard But for a while there, they had these wonderful … They had these great engineers with super shiny degrees, with super shiny grades, but they weren’t solving the engineering problems. It wasn’t happening. They were great on paper, but when you gave them something real, it just wasn’t working. So they went back to some of the engineers that had worked on their major projects and were really great, and said, “What’s the commonality here? What are we missing in these new folks that these other folks have?”
Scott Robison Sure.
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. So they found out that it was play. The best engineers were the ones who loved as kids to take things apart, put them back together, right? Take a part their uncle’s CD DVD player, put it back together, build the derby cars, right? Do amazing Lego creations. And so now, in their hiring policy, they ask, “What’d you do as a kid?”
Scott Robison Yup.
Kathy Oppegard Because those are the best engineers, those are the best ones.
Scott Robison How did they figure that out? You know what I mean? You hear stuff like that and you’re like how did they figure that out? I always wondered.
Kathy Oppegard That is a question I do not know the answer to, but I’m imagining that their human resources people were busy figuring that one out.
Scott Robison Yeah. How many layers of study did that take to tease out that particular piece? That’s interesting.
Kathy Oppegard Right, exactly. And then, as another example, Google, right, Google’s doing just fine, right? Millions of dollars earned a year. And they have a relatively new facility out East and it’s designed to help people connect and talk so that they can solve the problems and challenges that Google users have, right? And make their interface great, and all the things that Google does for us, right?
Scott Robison What does that look like? What’s that set up look like?
Kathy Oppegard Oh, I’ve not been, but it’s got … There’s a library that has like a secret door where you can go through, and then there’s more books, and there’s reading nooks. There’s like spots that have like Hollywood icons on there, and you can go have a snack. You can bring your dog to work. There’s like trolleys of food and snacks that go around. There’s all these really interesting, inviting fun things that are woven in and into their workplace. And Google is thriving, they’ve discovered this is a wonderful way for them to retain their folks, and keep them resilient, playful, willing to solve problems because they’re having such a good time.
Scott Robison Gotcha. Okay. So I think we sort of like established that being able to play and be creative, and interact with both your … sort of be humble with yourself and your ability to fail, but also you’re right to sort of take a risk, and ask people to fail with you, which is sort of what play is like a little bit.
Kathy Oppegard Yeah.
Scott Robison If you’re nervous about this, can you give us a couple of concrete, easy to try things just to try at home tonight after you’re done listening to the podcast?
Kathy Oppegard Sure, of course. So one thing that I love to have people do is that when you think about something that you love to do, whether it was as a kid, or as an adult, I love cheesy jokes, I love crossword puzzles, whatever that thing is, make a play pocket out of it. A play pocket means that it’s something simple, something easy, you can do it five, 15 minutes. And it’s kind of like it’s something in your back pocket, and you can just grab it out, and do it, it’s really fun.
Kathy Oppegard And it could be as simple as you listen to your favorite music, right? You got your smartphone, you just listen to a couple of your favorite jazz songs. You’re like yeah, get into it, lip sync or whatever. But just try a little play pocket, all right? That you love and just try it once a day if you can. If you can do it a couple times of day, awesome. So that’s one idea for you and the other thing is, a play date, right? Like I know you have kids, right?
Scott Robison Sure, totally. Lots of them.
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. Lots of them, exactly. So we set a play date for our kids, so set up play dates for yourself, too. Go hang out with that friend that you haven’t seen for a couple months, and be like, “I just want to hang out. Let’s go have fun. I don’t even care what we do, let’s go do something fun.”
Scott Robison Yup.
Kathy Oppegard Some people might be the planning type and they love to plan, and know what they’re going to do, and they like, yeah, okay, and they like to talk about ahead. If you’re like that, awesome. If you’re more spontaneous, then you just like, “Let’s go hang out Tuesday night.” Okay, great. So you just go hang out with your friend.
Scott Robison Got it.
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. And one thing I recommend to folks, to my clients, is to just say, try working that into your calendar like once a month. Just say have an ongoing play date with your buddy the first Friday of the month. And then, it gets momentum, and people look forward to it, and then if one or two people can’t come, it’s not a big deal because there’s enough folks that come. Yeah.
Scott Robison That’s a great idea. Something that has been recommended to us over the years, and dealing with our … Speaking of our little gaggle of children, is trying to like try, and turn things into play, when they’re getting confrontational, turning that around. How do you help the people who say, “I’m just not a playful person, that’s not what I normally do.” How do you help those people sort of try that for themselves with their kids?
Kathy Oppegard Oh sure, with their kids. Well, sometimes people might have problems with the word play or playful, right? If they’ve turned that into something negative or not adult. If you’re an adult, and you’re like, oh, I’m supposed to an adult. I’m supposed to be very serious. I’m not supposed to be playful. Then, you might have problems with just that word. And so, I’ll say, “Well, what if you have some creative time with your kids? What if had some times where you could connect?” Like sometimes we’ll just try different words to see if that helps people. And then, it’s like you want to try something simple, right? What is it that your kids loves to do, right? My son loves to dance, right?
Scott Robison Okay.
Kathy Oppegard And so, we will have spontaneous dance parties in the living room, or kind of wherever we’re at.
Scott Robison Sure, yeah, grocery store aisles, you know whatever.
Kathy Oppegard Grocery store aisles, yup. We were at the grocery store one day and he was dancing to the tunes on the speaker, so yup. And that’s like the length of a song, right?
Scott Robison Okay, sure.
Kathy Oppegard So something simple that your kid already loves to do that you’re willing to try, like maybe dancing isn’t your thing. You’re like no, no, no. Well, what else does your kid love to do? Do they love to build things? You make something out of toilet paper rolls, or Legos. You want to build a blanket fort.
Scott Robison Right.
Kathy Oppegard Right. Can you go climb a tree with them? Or can you pretend to climb a tree with them, and say, “Oh, there I am-
Kathy Oppegard Or can you, you know, pretend to climb the trees with them, and say, “Oh, there I am! Up there on the thing.”
Scott Robison Right. Okay.
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. So try to meet … try to figure out something that you both already enjoy. That’s the thing. Is that you want to-
Scott Robison Gotcha.
Kathy Oppegard Because play between two people needs to be something that they both enjoy. Otherwise, you’re kind of like, “Uh. I don’t really want to do this.”
Scott Robison Sure. Yeah.
Kathy Oppegard That’s not a way to start.
Scott Robison Not so much.
Kathy Oppegard You want to start … Start with something you both enjoy. And then go from there. And there may be other things that come up, and other ideas, and you’re like, “Oh, that sounds kind of cool. I’m going to go try some Foosball or some ping pong. Or I’m going to …” you know. Yeah.
Scott Robison I was pitching to my boys this morning.
Kathy Oppegard Oh nice.
Scott Robison Which is fun. I don’t know. I don’t know how fun it was for them. I’m not a great pitcher. My dad is the king of backyard pitching. My two year old got a little too close to the bat. But, you know.
Kathy Oppegard Right. As one does when they’re two.
Scott Robison As one does when you’re two and frustrated in the morning.
Kathy Oppegard Right.
Scott Robison So, shift gears for a little bit, a little bit Kathy, so you mentioned briefly that you, this is something that you help … Or I guess we talked about Google and JPL, right, talking about how organizations and companies can encourage play. And I know you’ve written book, Fool Willing, I think it’s called.
Kathy Oppegard It is.
Scott Robison Tell me about, how specific is the book? Like, what’s the book about?
Kathy Oppegard So, the the full title, which next I write a book, I’m going to write something shorter. It’s called Fool Willing: The Secret Power of Play to Engage Communities in Your Green Organization. And it’s really all about how can you use the power of play to engage community to help bring people in to your environmental organization. And I wrote it for folks who love the earth. It is really is helpful for anybody who wants to bring more playfulness, fulfillment and creativity into their work and home.
Scott Robison Okay. That’s a very very specific audience. Why green organizations?
Kathy Oppegard Why green organizations? Well, one of the things that I love to help people, I love to help change makers and people who are making a difference in the world. And I think that when you are looking at the Earth and looking at all of the challenges facing us in terms of our planet, it can get really heavy and difficult really fast. Extinction rates and climate change and you know, water damage and pollution and all this stuff. It’s really big and you have to think long term.
Kathy Oppegard So I want to help people who are frustrated or depleted be able to refill themselves and their organization so they can rebuild their laughter and their legacy and be more resilient in solving some of these challenges that we have.
Scott Robison So this message of play and trying and failing and connecting with each other, what’s specific about the organizations? What do they need most help doing?
Kathy Oppegard Oh, sure. Well, I imagine, it depends on the green organization. You could ask that question, and it could be, but sometimes it’s about retention of staff. Right? So that, it’s a lot about burnout. We don’t want people to get burnout because they’re working on these issues that are so huge and they’re really long term. Like lifetimes. Right?
Scott Robison Yeah. It’s hard to see the needle move.
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So how do you come to work everyday where you’re like I’m thinking a hundred years in the future. What do I need in my own self in my own organization? How can we be resilient enough to see the long term, respond to changes in the short term, and still be willing to [inaudible 00:28:51].
Scott Robison Sure. So how do they do that?
Kathy Oppegard How do they? Well, I wrote a whole book for them. So part of it is integrating into the culture of an organization. The willingness to listen, you know? To invite community in. Obviously you can’t have the public deciding everything for your organization, but when you are trying to serve the public, how can you see them as a resource, right? Like, what can volunteers do for you? I think a lot of them are doing a really marvelous job of that. And what can you do to create events for people that are fun, engaging, and get something done?
Kathy Oppegard Because if you can create something that’s really awesome, you’re going to keep having people come back. Like for example, the folks at the Ice Age trail, when I asked one of their staff, “What’s your secret to creating great events?” And they said, “Food and fire.”
Scott Robison Oh. There you go. Sure.
Kathy Oppegard I thought that was great. So they have people come and work on trails, which is physical maintenance of trails and so it’s really clearing trails, or clearing old trees that have fallen down, and mulching and that kind of stuff. Or they’re doing, getting rid of species that don’t belong there.
Scott Robison Oh, invasives?
Kathy Oppegard Invasives. Thank you. Yeah. Invasive species. So it’s kind of two pronged. But what they do is they always make sure there’s food there and that night they have fire. And people just love it because there’s something they [inaudible 00:31:01] and connecting. People sitting around the fire and talking.
Scott Robison Absolutely. Especially if there’s beer involved. Yeah. For sure.
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. Such a great … I loved that.
Scott Robison That’s great. So if you’re not a green organization, how else can people get ahold of you for help on getting to play more?
Kathy Oppegard Yeah. I love my green peeps, but I work with lots of folks. I love change makers and people making differences in all the places. Whether it’s their own life or in the greater world. So, they can contact me at or if they just go to there’s a way to reach me there too.
Scott Robison Go ahead and give us the full web address.
Kathy Oppegard Oh sure. It’s
Scott Robison Got. And fool like F-O-O-L.
Kathy Oppegard Fool like F-O-O-L.
Scott Robison Okay. So you offer, do you offer individual coaching too, or group coaching.
Kathy Oppegard I do. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). I do individual coaching and then I also do group coaching for folks, and I’ve done speaking engagements as well.
Scott Robison Okay.
Kathy Oppegard Lots of different options.
Scott Robison Sure. What kind of organizations do you speak to?
Kathy Oppegard Well, I spoke at the Wisconsin Land Trust conference. So I spoke to a bunch of different folks who preserve and protect land and engage the public in hiking and biking and all kind of stuff and their land.
Scott Robison Okay.
Kathy Oppegard Yup. And then I’ve also spoken at wellness summits, like to the wellness collective.
Scott Robison Sure, of course. Yeah. I just talked to Susan Fricken last week.
Kathy Oppegard Right, right. Oh good. Great. Yeah. Susan’s awesome.
Scott Robison She is a special person, no doubt. Okay. Anywhere else to connect with you? Is contacting you through the website the best? Or do you have an email you’re willing to give out?
Kathy Oppegard Oh sure, of course. It’s called
Scott Robison Got it. Okay. I think I must have written that down wrong. Are you on social media anywhere? Instagram or anything like that?
Kathy Oppegard Yes. Yup. If you go to Kathy Oppegard Coaching on Facebook, I’m there too.
Scott Robison Gotcha. And that’s O-P-P-E-G-A-R-D.
Kathy Oppegard Yup. Oppe-gard. It means mountain farm in Norwegian if that helps anybody.
Scott Robison Oh, that’s fun. I know at least one Norwegian who’s probably listening to this podcast so hopefully he’ll enjoy that.
Kathy Oppegard Good.
Scott Robison All right. All right, Kathy. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to talk with us. And we will find you on the interwebs and all those places. And we’ll look forward to talking to you again soon.
Kathy Oppegard Okay. Sounds great. Thank you so much, Scott.

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